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 Post subject: ATLC in UAE [moderated] Rafale vs Typhoon, Rafale vs F-22
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:21 pm 
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I think it is worth mentioning, even if it won't please everybody.

In case there is an official sources saying otherwise, so it's the topic too...

http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2009/12/l ... e-est.html
Quote:
The RAF is not what it used to be.

The first reports made this morning by a French Rafale pilot reported a superiority of the French fighter over the RAF Typhoon during confrontations made in recent weeks, in the UAE.

The first confrontation committing four against four Typhoon and Rafale ended with a 4-0 in favor of French.

Despite, he explains, the carriage of air-air weapons fictitiously degraded, says one. After a little degraded even arming, the Rafale has won again, 3-1.

The Rafale has faced several times in F22, but in a limited visual combat air to air.

It would have been in the crosshairs of the American fighter only once, he said too.

The Rafale, we all understood, has greatly improved its reputation, especially among UAE pilots.

It thus several time repeatedly demonstrated its superiority in all the spectacular missional in detecting sites of ground-air missiles that had not been updated by U.S. F-16CJ.

Furthermore, the front sector optronics (OSF) has also enabled the detection and identification up to 40 kilometers an asset which prevents the aircraft exposed for visual identification at 3-4 km, which is Necessary for most other types of aircraft.

Similarly, within a minute, a Rafale has fired six AASM on as many targets, at ranges of several tens of kilometers, while also firing three missiles air-air Mica. In the back seat, that day, a UAE pilot...



http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss325/aviadare2/4188952622_9de8a26779.jpg
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss325/aviadare2/4188188719_3dd3267620.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Exercices in UAE
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:30 pm 
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This may have been a hint :
http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2009/11/27/154660-atlc

Captain Romain is a pilot who has flown Rafale in Afghanistan. When he came back, he wrote a book about his experience (i have yet to order it).
So, this guy is well in touch with those who went to ATLC...

And here is what he wrote in the blog :
Quote:
Je ne parviens pas à taire plus longtemps mon plaisir : Les pilotes qui font là-bas la démonstration des capacités du fleuron aéronautique français, portent vraiment très hautes les couleurs de la France, remportant de magnifiques victoires face aux autres nations.

Quote:
I can't shut my pleasure up anylonger : the pilots there who are showing the capabilities of the Rafale are bringing the colors of France very high, by gaining splendid victories against other nations.

To be continued...

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 Post subject: Re: Exercices in UAE
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:18 pm 
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Awesome info, especially nice (if true) because this happened in front of the UAE pilots. I hope this will be enough to convince them to finally order the Rafale at last!

Nic


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 Post subject: Re: Exercices in UAE
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Update :

Here is another article by a journalist who also was at the press conference :
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... irats.html
Basically the same information.

Interesting : he has added an article which tittle is "am i allowed to say that the Rafale is a good plane ?" because people had quite negative reactions to his article about UAE (those are French, yes). Rafale is still under heavy criticisms in France. It's still widely misunderstood, and just considered as an excessively costly piece of hardware.

Here is a link for the announcement of the press conference on the AdA site :
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/defense/votr ... embre_2009
It was explicitly said that they were going to talk about ATLC.

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 Post subject: Re: Exercices in UAE
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:21 pm 
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LC : L'interview du commandant de l'escadron de chasse 01.007 Provence !!!
samedi 19 décembre 2009 :: Débat :: Alerter la modération

La participation de six avions de combat Rafale F3 au récent Air Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC) qui s'est déroulé aux Emirats arabes unis du 15 novembre au 9 décembre a été"un succès total". "Nous avons fait carton plein" assure le lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commandant de l'escadron 1/7 Provence (Saint-Dizier).

La participation à ce grand exercice international était très importante pour la France alors que les négociations pour la vente de 60 Rafale aux EAU se poursuivent. Clairement, un bon point a été marqué par les Français auprès de leurs collègues émiriens. D'autant que la disponibilité des Rafale a été"exemplaire" : ils ont pû participer à tous les exercices à raison de deux patrouilles de quatre avions par jour, depuis la base d'Al Dhafra

Le "plateau" réuni pour cet ATLP était impressionnant : F-16 C/D block 60 et Mirage 2000-9 (Emirats), F-16 MLU (Jordanie), F-7 [une version modernisée du Mig-21] (Pakistan), Typhoon [Eurofighter] (Royaume-Uni) et F-16 CJ et F-22 (Etats-Unis). Plus des Awacs et des tankers. L'exercice consiste à simuler des raids importants, jusqu'à quarante avions, dans "des missions réalistes représentatives d'un conflit de haute intensité". Les appareils doivent faire face à une oppositon aérienne et sol-air.

Au plan du combat aérien, son optronique secteur frontal (OSF) a permis aux Rafale d'identifier visuelement des cibles jusqu'à 30/40 kilomètres, alors que l'identification habituelle en défense aérienne se fait entre trois et cinq kilomètres. En matière de guerre électronique, les Rafales ont détecté des menaces sol-air que les F-16 CJ américains, dont c'est la vocation principale, n'avaient pas vu. Un Rafale a pu simuler le tir de six munitions air-sol (A2SM) sur 6 objectifs différents (programmés) à une distance de 20 à 40 kilomètres, puis tirer trois missiles air-air Mica, le tout en une minute - ce qui témoigne de la polyvalence de l'avion.

Lors d'affrontements air-air, le Rafale a "mis des tôles" aux Typhoons de la Royal Air Force, assure le lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon. En version dégradée, à quatre contre quatre, les Rafale ont réalisé des scores de 4 à 0 et de 3 à 1.

L'avion de combat français s'est également frotté au F-22, le chasseur le plus moderne de l'USAF. Au cours d'une rencontre, ils se sont affrontés à six reprises, le F-22 ne mettant qu'un seul coup au but.

Cet article est celui de Monsieur Merchet, journaliste à Libé. Ce qui est reporté est une bombe dans le monde de l'aéronautique militaire. Enfin, nous savons ce que vaut réellement le Typhoon, le Raptor et le Rafale...

Je ne dirai pas Cocorico, mais simplement que la France a une nouvelle fois démontré qu'elle fut et est toujours une très grande nation aéronautique : Après avoir fait voler les tous premiers avions il y a près d'un siècle, après le célèbre Mirage III puis le Mirage F1 puis le Mirage 2000, la France est clairement très en avance aujourd'hui avec le Rafale.

http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2009/12/19/158245-atlc-linterview-du-commandant-de-lescadron-de-chasse-01007-provence


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 Post subject: Re: Exercices in UAE
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:23 am 
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This article (which i won't translate) just show how confident in the Rafale our pilots are now. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Exercices in UAE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:30 pm 
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As is so often the case in exercises, there is typically a defending and an attacking team and its organised such that its useful for both sides. The Typhoon beats the Rafale in terms of air to air stats (missiles, radar ect), so any win Rafale has obviously has nothing to do with these capabilities and so doesn't really prove any Rafale superiority.

Either way, shifting Rafale on the export market seems to be like shifting bacon rolls at a bar mitzvah :)


TMor : i don't know if you'll come back, but i want you to see that you're allowed to express your ideas even if i don't like and/or approve them. We are in a part called "WHAT HAPPENED", thus, saying that "Typhoon beats the Rafale in terms of air to air stats" is not appropriate here. Reference to Dare2 removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Exercices in UAE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Next step : will there be an answer ? According to J Lake, yes !

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 Post subject: Re: ATLC in UAE [moderated] Rafale vs Typhoon, Rafale vs F-22
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Mate: the answer IS Jon Lake. My bet is on an article based on hearsay.

Nic


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 Post subject: Re: ATLC in UAE [moderated] Rafale vs Typhoon, Rafale vs F-22
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:18 pm 
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Two documents to add :

The Eurofighter GmBh answer :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=231
Quote:
Yes, we cannot respond to you very detailed question, but I can say you something about Al Dahafra: the stories about the Rafale vs Typhoon are unjustified and unfair representations.

In the exercise sories Typhoons and Rafales worked together on the same team! There were red Ty/Raf combos and blue Ty/Raf combos.

On the CT (continuation training) sorties both Typhoon and Rafale squadrons were conducting work-up sorties for their junior pilots and yes- mistakes were made on both sides where results as quoted occured (both for and against Rafale) - to quote training results is unfair and "very French"!!

Typhoon was always carrying more than Rafale, Typhoon always came into the fight above Rafale and Typhoon performance take off was always more stunning than Rafale - all as expected.



Extract from "Dassault magazine" number 144, Winter 2009/2010, page 3.
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3051/dassaultmagazinen144hiv.jpg
Quote:
Vous pourrez lire, dans ce numéro, un article qui a fait grand bruit dans la presse aéronautique mondiale : il s'agit du compte-rendu rédigé par un pilote d'essais anglais après son vol sur Rafale, à Istres. Ce pilote, renommé pour son expérience, confirme ce que nous savions tous, à savoir que notre avion est excellent. Cette conviction est corroborée par les exercices interalliés auxquels participent les Rafale de la Marine et de l'armée de l'Air depuis plusieurs années. Le mois dernier encore, une confrontation internationale a eu lieu aux Emirats, qui a permis de démontrer la supériorité de notre appareils face au Typhoon de la RAF. Bref, il est de plus en plus évident, aux yeux de tous les observateurs avertis, que le Rafale fait référence.

Quote:
You can read in this issue, an article which caused quite a stir in the media world aviation: this is the report written by an English test pilot after his flight Rafale at Istres. This driver renowned for its experience confirms what we all knew, that our plane is excellent. This belief is borne out by the allied exercises involving the Gust of the Navy and the Air Force for several years. Just last month, an international confrontation took place in the UAE, which has demonstrated the superiority of our equipment against the Typhoon of the RAF. In short, it is increasingly evident in the eyes of all observers warned that the Rafale refers.

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