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 Post subject: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encounters
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:03 am 
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As I locked the older thread and don't want to give it a second chance, since a lot of people are interested in this bloody question then, here comes a new one.

1) Rafale M F1 vs Italian Typhoon in 2007 :

So, the first encounter happened in 2007, between the Italian Typhoon and Marine Nationale Rafale F1.
Only dogfights...
No results were published, but the French declared that they had "not much to envy to other types" (the Typhoon wasn't the only one considered here). Not very interesting...
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=104002
Quote:
Depuis 2001, les 10 Rafale F1 livrés à la flottille 12F, basée à Landivisiau (Finistère), ont été opposés à de nombreux appareil : « On s'est mesuré à pas mal d'avions de défense aérienne, comme le F-14, le F-15, le F-18, le Gripen, le Mirage 2000 et, ce mois-ci, à l'Eurofighter. On voit qu'on n'a pas grand-chose à envier aux autres.




2) Rafale Air F2 vs German Typhoon in 2008 :

A year later, Rafale met with German Typhoon. Since we had no idea about where to look, the only bit we had about it was when German pilots said the results were "extremely gratifying" (Flug Revue) :
http://www.flugrevue.de/index.php?id=4187 (not working anymore)
Quote:
Eurofighter: Signature for Tranche 3 gets urgent

By Karl Schwarz
[...]the pilots from Neuburg recently pitted their skills against their French Rafale colleagues in aerial combat. The results were extremely gratifying, the main difference being the much greater thrust of the EJ200 engine. [...]

However, I personally had to wait June 2011 (yesterday) to be given this link :
http://www.raes.org.uk/pdfs/AI_0811.pdf
Quote:
Besting the Rafale
Speaking of the Eurofighters close-in combat prowess, Major Marc Grüne, CO of 742 (Zapata), the second squadron of the wing, described to assembled aviation journalists how, on a recent visit to France to demo the aircraft, he had won ‘two out of two’ battles against the Dassault Rafale in mock withinvisual range dogfights. Both fights were a ‘standard set-up’ and merge at 21,000ft and 30,000ft he recounted, adding that the “higher the fight the better the Eurofighter liked it”. He singled out the Eurofighter’s excess power as its trump card over the Rafale in this admittedly ‘controlled’ test but did concede that the Rafale’s EW systems would be highly effective in a real conflict situation. He also noted that the Rafale was able to keep control at lower speeds — due to the ‘automatic’ pull-out and recovery system that the Eurofighter is equipped with and which takes control away from the pilot if it thinks a departure or stall is imminent.

The only thing we lack here, to me, is : guns or missiles ? But at least, a clear superiority of Typhoon above 20,000 ft was demonstrated.

No surprise French didn't talk about this event. :mrgreen:


3) Rafale Air vs RAF Typhoon in September 2009 :

However, French hadn't said their last word.

So, in 2009, in Corsica (Solenzara), RAF asked for 9 or 10 set-up. The rules were :
  • 18,000 ft altitude to start with ;
  • guns only ;
  • the two aircraft flying altogether at 350kts (where both should have their corner speed), separated by 2 kilometers, following the same heading ;
    when given the green light, both break at 45 degrees away and when given the "turn in" order, turn so as to find the other right ahead, head on.
According to the information gathered by Air & Cosmos, all pilots on both sides were highly skilled, in addition, RAF pilots only trained for Air to Air at the time.
It took the Rafale, each time, 40 seconds and three crossing to get in a shooting position.
Rafale lost only once.
Sources :
  • Air & Cosmos (hors série : "le Rafale au combat", published in 2010)
  • Air Force Monthly (May 2010 ?, can't remember, article "Justifiably proud !")

No surprise British didn't talk about this event. :mrgreen:


4) Rafale Air vs RAF Typhoon in UAE, just before ATLC :

A bit later, just before ATLC, Rafale and Typhoon met again. Both played Red air force, and blue force, during training prior the ATLC.
My sources are AFM (as above), DSI (May 2010), the same Air & Cosmos as seen above, and two highly credible French journalist's blog.
We couldn't have more details, and, at the same time, be so much confused about what is said.
It all started when Jean-Marc Tanguy and Jean-Dominique Merchet published articles according to what they were told during a press conference given by Lt Colonel Grandclaudon.

a) Initial claims reported by French journalists on their blogs :

According to Jean-Marc Tanguy, Rafale won 7 times out of 2 (4 on 4) set-up against Typhoon, with degraded weapons the first time, even more after.
first set up : 4 wins out of 4.
second : 3 wins out of 4.
The same results were reported by JD Merchet, but with less details.

b) Air Force Monthly :

It appeared that those claims were misunderstood by someone though, and later, in AFM, Grandclaudon gave more details :
Quote:
The results I gave out were when two Rafale took on four blue Typhoons with a pair of simulated AA-10C Alamo on board.

Interestingly, Grandclaudon added :
Quote:
I should not have given the results, because we were only training assets for RAF pilots, still growing on the Typhoon, but I was so proud [...]


c) Défense et Sécurité Internationale :

In DSI, Grandclaudon was interviewed just after he was by AFM.
According to DSI, Rafale were training in IR missiles and guns dogfights against the Typhoon !!! :o :?
Under those conditions, Rafale won 7 times, and lost once, but not because it was shot down, but because one Rafale flew below the authorized altitude.

As reported by DSI, RAF pilots protested because Typhoon were playing Red forces against Blue Rafale, and thus, Grandclaudon claimed that Rafale had played the Red too, especially when 2 Rafale shot down 4 Typhoon, without loss.

Again, Grandclaudon, in this article, added that while RAF pilots were still unexperimented, French pilots trained during Red Flag some months ago... However, he showed very confident in the fact that Rafale's MMI, radar agility, aerodynamics and FCS refinement were keys for the victory.

d) Air & Cosmos :

There is no direct description of what happened there (they focused more on F-22). But A&C chose a different approach. They asked French pilots what were the strengh of Rafale over Typhoon... and (I understand it right now) VICE VERSA, the strengh of Typhoon over Rafale.

So, Typhoon has better engine above 20,000 ft, which give it the edge for combat in high altitude. It also has a longer range radar, and a longer range missile.
However, they say, those two last advantages (radar range, missile range) are balanced by the Rafale significantly smaller RCS, better sensor fusion (thus better situation awareness). And the higher thrust is balanced by the better low speed aerodynamics of the Rafale.


5) Conclusion :

Are you dreaming ? How would I conclude this ? :lol:

I personally think there is truth in everything here. I would definitely not be surprised if Rafale was superior in dogfight under 20,000 ft, inferior above. The rest may come as no real surprise to those who know both planes well enough, or so I hope.


Of course, feel free to post anything new so as to improve the quality of this thread. No flame-bait please, keep factual and on topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Just few additions. In spring 2009 a Rafale B visited Laage AB and spent 1 or 2 days there. There has been the rumour that during one encounter (supposedly WVR) a Typhoon pilot got toasted after making a serious error in the fight.
On top of that AdA Rafales visited Conningsby at least twice in 2009 and 2010 respectively. It has been stated that DACT was conducted but no details have been released so far from any side.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:47 pm 
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So we have a new comment now, this time from an Italian pilot as stated in the Eurofighter World issue 1/2012.

Quote:
As stated to Eurofighter World by an Italian Air Force pilot who recently had a chance to enter into ‘combat’ against Rafale over the Tyrrenian sea : “It was an interesting duel. They are still trying to find where we were as we were flying and shooting at them well above the maximum flying envelope allowed to the Rafale” !


I want to bring up your (TMor) comment from the Rafalenewsblog.

Quote:
Have they forgotten what happened in Al Dhafra and in Corsica ?


It is stated that:
Quote:
The two aircraft have met several times during Dissimilar Air Combat Training and in almost all the encounters, Typhoon emerged with significantly better performances.


This is important as they state "in almost all", not "in all" encounters. ;)

At the end of the day it's just one of many claims without any specifics and thus not seriously conclusive. It just demonstrates one thing, both sides insist on being "better".


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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:37 pm 
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Thanks a lot for your contribution. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:46 pm 
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http://lemamouth.blogspot.fr/2012/05/de ... anche.html

VERY INTERESTING. :o

Some Rafale will cross the Channel, but it seems that it will not last for long, and that the media coverage will be limited. Reason : last time RAF met "in a friendly way", they seized the opportunity to bash the Rafale.

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:11 pm 
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?


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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:40 pm 
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More details here :

http://www.air-cosmos.com/defense/rafal ... faits.html

In French. But yes, French pilots are fed up with Rafale bashing. Waiting to post something on the blog.

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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Here you go :

http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2012/05/t ... ghter.html

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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Interesting as the RAF never spoke on record about the encounters between Rafale and Typhoon, they never published results or openly "bashed" Rafale and I'm not sure which source they refer to when it comes to the claims about the Rafale being unable to self-designate targets in Harmattan. Has the RAF ever commented on it? I'm only aware of an Indian politician claiming that the Rafale failed in precision bombing. So at the end of the day why is the RAF being blamed for it? Eurofighter is an industrial consortium and the Italian AF isn't the RAF and even the Italian pilot just commented on an engagement, but didn't state vast superiority, albeit the claims made might be translated as such if one wants. And why was the AMRAAM PK more permissive? Did the French restrict themselves not to unveil the true performance of MICA or did this reflect the likely performance of the real missile in comparison to the AMRAAM? Does the restriction contradict with claims of "we were shooting at them while they were still searching us"? They haven't exactly denied that this happened and just pointed out their disadvantage, which could in fact be irrelevant in the stated circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilot claims about Rafale vs Typhoon after actual encoun
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Quote:
Interesting as the RAF never spoke on record about the encounters between Rafale and Typhoon, they never published results or openly "bashed" Rafale and I'm not sure which source they refer to when it comes to the claims about the Rafale being unable to self-designate targets in Harmattan.

Well, in 2007, here is what was published in the Francis Tusa's "Defence Analysis" :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... stcount=35
Quote:
"Defence Analysis, June 2007, (PAGE 17 VOL 10 NO 6)

AS THE NEW GENERATION OF COMBAT AIRCRAFT see
more service, so more pilots from different countries get to fly them. And such is the case with both the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Of note is that RAF pilots, including some pretty senior ranks, have now flown Rafale. And without having to get picky, they don’t seem that impressed.

“Frightfully underpowered”, one such pilot told Defence Analysis. “We were struggling at 20,000 feet basically unladen. I wouldn’t want to be in Rafale at 15,000 feet and +30 degrees with a combat load!” The pilot went on to describe the cockpit and its layout as, “distinctly French”, which was not necessarily a major compliment, although some of the individual instruments he thought had been very well thought out. But overall Man-Machine Interface was, “not a patch on what we have in Typhoon.”

While DA may be of quite limited circulation given its price (£350 a year), it was still an open and incredibly ridiculous trolling attempt from the RAF.
How fair are RAF pilots ? We offer them a flight onboard the Rafale, and here is what they said... ?!?

Truth is that we don't even know what's happening behind the scene, but at a time of harsh marketing campaigns, blatant lies are outrageous. It appears that this problem is not only a fanboys' problem !

For the source about Harmattan, I can't remember, but you can't deny that some people jumped on the lack of information on French side to claim superiority of Typhoon over Rafale. Example : availability.

The RAF isn't blamed by the A&C article. But since Eurofighter started with "RAF Typhoon from the No.3(F) Squadron", I guess it was time to tell how good the relations are with the RAF.


Quote:
and even the Italian pilot just commented on an engagement, but didn't state vast superiority

Of course. And the answer to this comment do not deny that Italians won, this day. It only deny that French were "still trying to find where" they were, since the difference was made by Pks.


Quote:
Did the French restrict themselves not to unveil the true performance of MICA or did this reflect the likely performance of the real missile in comparison to the AMRAAM?

As I read it in French, the more likely hypothesis is the first...


Quote:
Does the restriction contradict with claims of "we were shooting at them while they were still searching us"? They haven't exactly denied that this happened and just pointed out their disadvantage, which could in fact be irrelevant in the stated circumstances.

Yes. Or maybe their statement makes the other dubious.

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