The International Rafale forum

As I locked the older thread and don't want to give it a second chance, since a lot of people are interested in this bloody question then, here comes a new one.

1) Rafale M F1 vs Italian Typhoon in 2007 :

So, the first encounter happened in 2007, between the Italian Typhoon and Marine Nationale Rafale F1.
Only dogfights...
No results were published, but the French declared that they had "not much to envy to other types" (the Typhoon wasn't the only one considered here). Not very interesting...
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=104002




2) Rafale Air F2 vs German Typhoon in 2008 :

A year later, Rafale met with German Typhoon. Since we had no idea about where to look, the only bit we had about it was when German pilots said the results were "extremely gratifying" (Flug Revue) :
http://www.flugrevue.de/index.php?id=4187 (not working anymore)

However, I personally had to wait June 2011 (yesterday) to be given this link :
http://www.raes.org.uk/pdfs/AI_0811.pdf

The only thing we lack here, to me, is : guns or missiles ? But at least, a clear superiority of Typhoon above 20,000 ft was demonstrated.

No surprise French didn't talk about this event.


3) Rafale Air vs RAF Typhoon in September 2009 :

However, French hadn't said their last word.

So, in 2009, in Corsica (Solenzara), RAF asked for 9 or 10 set-up. The rules were :

• 18,000 ft altitude to start with ;
• guns only ;
• the two aircraft flying altogether at 350kts (where both should have their corner speed), separated by 2 kilometers, following the same heading ;
  when given the green light, both break at 45 degrees away and when given the "turn in" order, turn so as to find the other right ahead, head on.

According to the information gathered by Air & Cosmos, all pilots on both sides were highly skilled, in addition, RAF pilots only trained for Air to Air at the time.
It took the Rafale, each time, 40 seconds and three crossing to get in a shooting position.
Rafale lost only once.
Sources :

• Air & Cosmos (hors série : "le Rafale au combat", published in 2010)
• Air Force Monthly (May 2010 ?, can't remember, article "Justifiably proud !")

No surprise British didn't talk about this event.


4) Rafale Air vs RAF Typhoon in UAE, just before ATLC :

A bit later, just before ATLC, Rafale and Typhoon met again. Both played Red air force, and blue force, during training prior the ATLC.
My sources are AFM (as above), DSI (May 2010), the same Air & Cosmos as seen above, and two highly credible French journalist's blog.
We couldn't have more details, and, at the same time, be so much confused about what is said.
It all started when Jean-Marc Tanguy and Jean-Dominique Merchet published articles according to what they were told during a press conference given by Lt Colonel Grandclaudon.

a) Initial claims reported by French journalists on their blogs :

According to Jean-Marc Tanguy, Rafale won 7 times out of 2 (4 on 4) set-up against Typhoon, with degraded weapons the first time, even more after.
first set up : 4 wins out of 4.
second : 3 wins out of 4.
The same results were reported by JD Merchet, but with less details.

b) Air Force Monthly :

It appeared that those claims were misunderstood by someone though, and later, in AFM, Grandclaudon gave more details :

Interestingly, Grandclaudon added :


c) Défense et Sécurité Internationale :

In DSI, Grandclaudon was interviewed just after he was by AFM.
According to DSI, Rafale were training in IR missiles and guns dogfights against the Typhoon !!!
Under those conditions, Rafale won 7 times, and lost once, but not because it was shot down, but because one Rafale flew below the authorized altitude.

As reported by DSI, RAF pilots protested because Typhoon were playing Red forces against Blue Rafale, and thus, Grandclaudon claimed that Rafale had played the Red too, especially when 2 Rafale shot down 4 Typhoon, without loss.

Again, Grandclaudon, in this article, added that while RAF pilots were still unexperimented, French pilots trained during Red Flag some months ago... However, he showed very confident in the fact that Rafale's MMI, radar agility, aerodynamics and FCS refinement were keys for the victory.

d) Air & Cosmos :

There is no direct description of what happened there (they focused more on F-22). But A&C chose a different approach. They asked French pilots what were the strengh of Rafale over Typhoon... and (I understand it right now) VICE VERSA, the strengh of Typhoon over Rafale.

So, Typhoon has better engine above 20,000 ft, which give it the edge for combat in high altitude. It also has a longer range radar, and a longer range missile.
However, they say, those two last advantages (radar range, missile range) are balanced by the Rafale significantly smaller RCS, better sensor fusion (thus better situation awareness). And the higher thrust is balanced by the better low speed aerodynamics of the Rafale.


5) Conclusion :

Are you dreaming ? How would I conclude this ?

I personally think there is truth in everything here. I would definitely not be surprised if Rafale was superior in dogfight under 20,000 ft, inferior above. The rest may come as no real surprise to those who know both planes well enough, or so I hope.


Of course, feel free to post anything new so as to improve the quality of this thread. No flame-bait please, keep factual and on topic.

Just few additions. In spring 2009 a Rafale B visited Laage AB and spent 1 or 2 days there. There has been the rumour that during one encounter (supposedly WVR) a Typhoon pilot got toasted after making a serious error in the fight.
On top of that AdA Rafales visited Conningsby at least twice in 2009 and 2010 respectively. It has been stated that DACT was conducted but no details have been released so far from any side.