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 Post subject: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Since the very begining, the Snecma has been working on a 90kN M88 (and even a 110kN).

In 1995, this engine was already on the bench... and (i have to find a source for this) the M88-3C was fitted on Rafale C01 for ground test.

After the Korean deal lost to the F-15K, the studies were dropped, but France launched the ECO programme which was to demonstrate the feasibility of a 90kN variant with different technologies.

We're now living fascinating times, because the UAE want the 90kN engine. The development should cost around € 800 M, and the work is already underway... with France funding half of the costs.

Aviation Week
Quote:
Snecma says it plans to test a new high-pressure core design for the M88 engine. The test is planned for September. A low-pressure part of the engine already began running on the bench earlier this year.

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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:22 pm 
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According my notes the M88-3 was first bench tested on 17. January 2005 achieving the 90 kN figure. Unfortunately I haven't saved a link and just put it to my personal notes

This document might contain some additional interesting notes:
http://www.parisairshow2005.com/en/uplo ... kit_en.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:16 pm 
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Where one can find confirmation of the the composition of the secondary engine nozzle flaps made of Composite Matrix Ceramic...

Not much news on M88-3 ther though.


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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:09 am 
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I have always maintained that the assumption for the need to increase airflow by way of increasing LP turbines diameter wasn't correct on the basis that this technology was that of the M88-3 and that internal aerodynamics had been improved since 1995.

My personal opinion was that this work by SNECMA and ONERA was meant to increase M88 pressure recovery capabilties as well as overal efficiency without resizing the inlets.

As a matter of FACT: From two pre-production M88, SNECMA claimed an increase in TWR from 8.5:1 to 10.0:1 with a TET increse of 177*c in 1987.

M88-II was already running at 85 kN in 1987, pressure ratio was increased too.

M88-3 was running at 95 kN in 1995, ECO in 2006.

Considering the technologic progresses made for design and materials i conclude that there is no need for a larger L-P Turbine.

I believe that the work on the 90 kN version of ECO, based on its newly developed low-pressure turbine but also a new high-pressure core design, combined with the increase in TET will be enough to give the engine 60/90 kN without an increase in L-P turbine diameter.

I'm sure OPIT will desagree but none of his comments on the subject ever took the aerodynamic effectiveness and TET increase in account, ignoring the peripheral developement programes conducted by SNECMA and ONERA on these technologies.

He based his theory on the experiece acquiered with engine two generations older than ECO.

In this doc, we also can find the clues and confirmation of M88 superior colling and details of its design: Double wall anular combustor with double cooling systems and airblast fuel nozzles.
Image
Thanks to the guy who posted this doc first...Wait and see.



Quote:
The UAE is also demanding a higher thrust version of the fighter's Snecma M88 engine to suit the hot-and-high conditions prevalent in the Middle East. A test program for the new powerplant, aimed at raising thrust to 9 metric tons from 7.5 tons currently, was announced in the run-up to last week's Paris Air Show. The main focus of the program is a new high-pressure core design that will begin running in September as part of a package of improvements, known as the Pack CGP-9T, intended to reduce M88 ownership costs for the French armed forces.

A demonstrator for the low-pressure part of the engine began testing this spring. The test program would enable the higher-power version to be available within three years of contract signature, Snecma executives say.
Jun 22, 2009
Michael A. Taverna/Paris


Last edited by Wingman on Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:54 am 
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There are other ways than increasing the airflow due increased fan diameter. Better compression and higher temperatures come to mind. And what I remember the M88-2ECO remains unchanged in terms of size and weight.


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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:57 am 
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Surprising news from A&C :

The Snecma is said to be offering the 90kN to our AdA for the fourth batch, with MCO similar in costs to the previous variants of the engine...

This may be a development of export market (UAE, Koweit, Lybia ?).

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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:15 pm 
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WOW!

So a damned good news at least.

I'm convinced that we're going to see this engine fitted to Rafales pretty soon, now F-22 and EF have more of a concurent in WVR than their designers planned.

Watch out for this sustained turn rate!


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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Calm down ! :lol:

AdA didn't say "yes" yet. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:29 am 
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http://www.safran-group.com/squelettes/ ... eur_FR.pdf
This PDF published in January 2010 tells us that :
  1. the engine fleet has exceeded the 100,000 flight hours (it's now a mature engine) ;
  2. the CGP pack keeps the same thrust but improves the maintenance and the engine's potential ;
  3. 20 percent of the engine will evolve, including the rear part of the compressor ;
  4. the first M88 CGP worked on bench on the 21st of august and the engine should be qualified in 2011 ;
  5. since 6 months, Snecma works on understanding the specificities of the missions UAE will fly the Rafale for, so as to develop the 9T engine according to their needs ;
  6. those modifications will include the CGP technologies, and an improved low pressure compressor ;
  7. Snecma works with Dassault to fit such an engine in the Rafale, implying a new air intakes.

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 Post subject: Re: The 90kN engine...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:30 pm 
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The future engine is called M88-9.


Its thrust will reach 88.3 kN.

Airflow increased by 11 percent from 65 to 72 kg per sec.

Compression ratio : 27:1

Weight increased by 40kg

Thrust to weight ratio : 9.2

Same maintenance costs as the M88-4E

Source : A&C.

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